My Kindle arrived! First impressions: not as clunky as I thought. I’m loving it for reading partials and after two days I already can’t imagine life without it. But there is definitely going to be an adjustment period. I’ll give a full rundown next week.
Meanwhile, in other e-book news, Publishers Lunch reports that a new e-book application for the iPhone, tied to FictionWise, is getting some rave reviews, and opening up the prospect of using iPhones as e-readers. Since I’m also hoping to get an iPhone soon, I’m very much looking forward to doing a comparison of the respective Kindle and iPhone e-book experience. The future is most definitely here.
A judge in New Jersey dismissed the case by a New Jersey literary agent against Wikimedia. As mentioned last week, the agent sued some of my favorite bloggers. I haven’t been fully up to date on the latest on this case so post in and check the comment section for more info. I’ve also been told there’s an author advocate defense fund for the defendants in the case.
Have you been reading Rebecca Ramsey’s awesome blog Wonders Never Cease lately? Yes, she’s a client, but honestly it’s like no other blog I’ve read and dare I say it’s taking the entire artform of blogging to a new level? Did you even know there was a blogging artform? I sure didn’t! But now there is one.
The always-indispensable Shrinking Violet Promotions has an awesome interview with a real live Random House publicist about things authors can do to promote their books.
And finally, the discussions about Wednesday’s hypothetical question and Thursday’s follow-up discussion really generated some of the best conversation material this blog has yet seen. Thank you SO MUCH to everyone who has contributed to the discussion. I’ll leave you with this comment from bunnygirl, which I thought really took the discussion into an interesting new place. What is it about writing that inspires so much more ambition than other hobbies?
What I find interesting is how many people think the only reason to write is to be published, and that publication legitimizes ones efforts somehow. Is there any other endeavor that carries such a load of assumptions?
Most of the people who run marathons know they aren’t going to come anywhere close to winning, but they run anyway. Most people who take up a musical instrument don’t expect to play at the local VFW Hall, let alone Carnegie Hall. Many people are very happy to paint watercolors that will hang on no one’s walls but their own, make beer that will never be served in a bar, or grow tomatoes that will never be for sale at the local supermarket.
No one thinks it odd that people have these hobbies and in fact, people usually speak respectfully of the gardeners, quilters, and other hobbyists in their midst without ever saying, “Well, Bob is just wasting his time restoring that GTO. He’s not a REAL mechanic because no one pays him to work in an auto repair shop.”
I wonder why writing is viewed by so many as something that’s not worth doing unless it results in a gloss-covered product on the shelf of Barnes & Noble?
Have a great weekend!
Joe Iriarte says
Shauna, I agree. The question is a bit of a straw man. Or at least, it begs the question of whether the assumption at root is in fact true. I think it feels to us like every writer wants to be a “professional” because that’s the crowd most of us here run with, and so we’re assuming that’s all that’s out there. The enormous popularity of fan fiction is one sign that that’s not all there is. Ditto for free online erotic fiction.
I would take it one step further, though. I would say that not everyone who seeks to sell a novel is seeking to be a professional. What we all seek is an audience. If you have a novel-length work, publication from a royalty publisher is the main way to acquire an audience. But most writers who do publish through royalty publishers never make enough to quit their day jobs, and I bet quite a lot of them are satisfied with that. My wife doesn’t want to quit hers. I could go either way. I wouldn’t quit tomorrow if I suddenly landed a megadeal. I’ve worked hard to get to the position I’m currently in at my day job and want to reap the rewards of that work for at least a little while. If all you write are short stories, even if you succeed in selling them to paying markets, you pretty much *are* a hobby writer. You will never make enough to live on with those sales. The huge number of short story markets that pay in writer’s copies, or that pay under $25, reinforces this.
I just can’t agree with the notion that there’s something mercenary about seeking professional publication. Most of us who do that, I believe, are not doing it for the money. When I think about the money I have spent on books on writing, books on publishing, writers’ conferences, readers’ conferences, well, heck, even if I sell a book my first advance probably won’t put me in the black. I just finished buying airfare to Readercon, on my credit cards, even though I’m pretty much broke. I can’t be doing this for the money.
I would argue that those of us who want to be published through paying markets are still hobbyists. We’re just seeking the audience where it lives. I don’t need a recording contract to find an audience for my singing, but I pretty much do need a publisher to find an audience for my novel-length works.
I think the question stirs us up so much because most of us view “mercenary” as being on the opposite end of a spectrum from “artist,” and when you suggest that people are only in it for the money, you are really calling into question whether or not they are artists at all.
-o-
icqb, Nathan gets so many commenters, there is no way I could check them all out. But I do check out quite a few. Generally people who agree with me, I’m embarrassed to admit. And people who pique my interest. From this thread alone, I’ve been, so far, to the blogs of paperback writer (because I see her posting on a lot of the same blogs I post at), vieva, and rebecca ramsay. I’ll probably check out more if the conversation continues. I do make a point of looking at other blogs besides those of agents and famous people.
Jess says
I blogged about this the other day.
Part of it is that most writers don’t view it as a hobby. A hobby is something you can put down. I can’t stop writing, so the natural conclusion of that is if I’m going to do it anyway, have to do it, I may as well do it for a purpose, and that would typically be publication.
But it’s not the only reason to write. There are people with the same drive who don’t draw such a conclusion.
That said, I quilt. I can not work on my quilt for months and it doesn’t bother me. So I don’t expect to enter any bees or fairs ever because it’s just a hobby to me.
I think the problem is in the use of the word “hobby” applied to writing. If it were just a hobby, then seeking publication does seem a little odd in most cases, but if it’s not a hobby, I can understand it.
A Paperback Writer says
To JES,
Your blog will NOT let me leave a comment!! Every time I try, it automatically kicks into refresh, so I gave up after 5 tries!
I’m glad Thomma lyn and I gave you food for thought. Thanks for telling us both. I did enjoy reading your blog post.
Bryan,
very thoughtful stuff, there.
Joe,
well said. thanks for dropping by my blog; I didn’t know you had because you didn’t leave a comment — but I’m glad to know.
Anonymous says
To me, this web site (link below) sums up the road-to-publishing reality in a way the sum total of agent blogs never could:
https://www.spywriter.com/litagency.html
He’s a published thriller author, and he has listed every one of the 400+ query responses he sent out for the world to see, along with statistics on how many rejects, how many requests for partials, etc.
FYI: 220+/400 agencies never responded at all, some never even repsonded after requesting fulls, even after followup requests.
JES says
Paperback Writer: Sorry for the confusion… I do get comments from others (including Thomma Lynn, today) so I’m guessing there must be something going on with the word-verification thingum on the comments page; I see a few attempts today to post a comment without entering the correct pair of words. I’ll check into it, though, and thanks for the heads-up (and also, again, for the conversation that kicked this whole thing off).
Shell I says
Going back and re-reading most of the posts I think it is quite funny, everyone seems to be arguing different sides of the same coin. I think where Bunnygirl is coming from (and sorry if I read this incorrectly) was how many people answered that they would stop writing if the seer told them a definate NO.
However I think it is then a bit of a leap to see it as only doing it for the publishing. Because no such seer really exists (no one agent, publisher etc can 100% tell you it is not going to happen) I will keep persisting. I may send a thousand queries and get a thousand form letters for a number of different books and ideas before I finally go “you know what, maybe I can’t do this professionally” and find some other avenue to expend my creative juices.
But at the end of the day I think pretty much everyone here is an artist, whether they decide to attempt to publish or not.
Polenth says
April Hollands wrote:
Because when you look at a friend’s terrible painting, you only have to look at it for a second. A novel is a much longer investment in time when you’re the friend of the writer. I wouldn’t want to subject anyone to my terrible writing if The Sage told me I could not write.
I had a similar view for years. I’d show people my art, which I knew wasn’t professional quality, because they only had to look at it for a second. Inflicting creative writing was something else. I didn’t want to do that to people.
However, that only stopped me showing people stuff. It didn’t stop me writing it in the first place. Hiding work because you believe you’re terrible is a different kettle of fish to not writing because you believe you’re terrible. The interesting point is that more people seem to fall in the latter category.
As far as I’m concerned, I believed the seer for years. So it wouldn’t be a huge change to believe the seer again.
Rick says
I tell people who ask for writing advice and getting published not to confuse the two. As so many have already stated or alluded to, writing can be a very therapeutic and personal experience. If you enjoy writing, then write until you can’t lift the pen anymore. Publishing a novel or writing for a living is a wonderful way to earn money but don’t confuse it with the art itself.
Rick
Maris Bosquet says
I don’t mean to go off-topic, but as Nathan mentioned something about the court case in NJ, I thought it was OK to ask:
The defendant claims to hold a doctorate. Does anybody know in what field, and from where? I once saw a board of trustees candidate claim to hold a doctorate from an Ivy League university. The claim was proved false, and the man stepped down before he was sued for fraud.
Chumplet says
Bunnygirl and I are in agreement. I often post about the satisfaction I get in doing a lovely painting and hanging it on my own wall.
My brother plays the guitar for his little daughter and in the local bar down the street. It makes no difference to him — he’s doing what he loves and his craft improves as a result.
Why does my friend JC play Nana the dog in a local production of Peter Pan? Because he loves to sing and dance, although his day job is graphic design.
Some of us may be satisfied with our accomplishments outside our usual daily duties, but others are ambitious enough to push ourselves a little further each time, to see if we can do better. Some may need to take their calling and make it a mission, like my sister-in-law who is one step from having her musicals produced on Broadway.
There’s nothing wrong with ambition. It’s what drives us to be better at what we do. I just wouldn’t want anyone to give up in despair only because they didn’t hit the ‘big time’.
My first book is available in Kindle, by the way. Care to be the first sale? I can be number 1,999,999 out of 2 million.
‘S okay with me.
Scott Jones says
Often quoted, but appropriate – sorry if its a bit inaccurate: “Many people want to be writers, but few want to write.” Eudora Welty
jjdebenedictis says
[M]any people think the only reason to write is to be published, and that publication legitimizes ones efforts somehow. Is there any other endeavor that carries such a load of assumptions? –Bunnygirl
My answer to the question is “Yes.” However, what I say next doesn’t apply to serious writers.
I think every career that has some component of public adulation attached to it attracts people who want that attention. They see the career itself as a vehicle for getting the adulation.
There are untrained singers who dream of being Madonna and try out for American Idol. There are incompetent writers who dream of being Neil Gaimen and spam literary agents with weak queries. There are even hobbyist technophiles who dream of being Stephen Hawking and send scientifically-incorrect papers to journals.
I think the focus on publication for some people is just them yearning for validation. They want external proof of their worth and talent.
But as I said, this doesn’t apply to serious writers (or singers, or scientists.) For them, external validation is nice, but secondary to doing the job they love.
Doreen says
I’m still trying to figure out exactly what it is I’m after in regards to publishing my book. While writing it, I didn’t want to ‘taint my writing with the prospect of commercialism’ so I did zero research. Once I finished, I learned I’d been lying to myself all along. I had always been thinking about what readers would want. I had always known I wasn’t going to keep it to myself and I wish I had been real with myself about it so this whole world wouldn’t have been such a culture shock. I never knew I’d have to become so obsessive about getting it out there or that I’d have to have to committ to foreplay with an agent before they’d even ask me to dance. Is it wrong that the goal turned from personal fulfillment (while writing it) to one of money and acknowledgment as soon as I finished)
Nancy D'Inzillo says
Doreen asked, “Is it wrong that the goal turned from personal fulfillment (while writing it) to one of money and acknowledgment as soon as I finished)”?
I don’t think so; every human has shifting goals and its natural that goals change. I think it’s totally possible to write something for the pleasure of writing, and then realize that maybe, after all the work, you’d like some recognition. There’s nothing wrong with wanting the outside validation of an audience.
Relative to Bunnygirl’s comment, I’d say that there is an expectation for writer’s to publish from outside the writer, even if they’re doing it for pleasure. One of my professors even said, “You can’t call yourself a writer until you’re published.” (Um, excuse me?) With those kinds of expectations (the constant questions from family, etc. as others have mentioned), it’s hard not to feel the pressure even if that’s not the direction you started out going for… I totally agree it’s important to write for the love of writing and realize that most people won’t get published, but I also think it’s a shame that so many people (even among those I respect) seem to consider a work “validated” just because it’s published.
There seems to be an underlying discussion (relative to the painting, the cooking, the gardening, etc.) about what constitutes “art” and the assumption that if something is acclaimed enough to make it big (or even make it in the industry at all) that it must be better than what doesn’t. (Bunnygirl I believe touched on this too.) Just because a book makes it to a publisher doesn’t mean it’s a great piece of literature, just like some head chef may be considered brilliant by many when I still may prefer my grandma’s home cooking. There is nothing objective in how we define art (be it the art of fixing a car or the art of writing a book). Too bad so many people insist that there is…
Anonymous says
Screenplays or novels–which is harder to break in with?
Anonymous says
Nathan,
Found your blog yesterday and I’m really enjoying it, but there is a question that is gnawing at me.
Identifying your “genre” seems like a really important part of getting your work noticed and finding the right agent. My question is what is the best way to handle this part of things if your genre is a bit muddled?
Maybe this shows a weakness in your manuscript I don’t know, but I find that the stuff I am working on tends to cross some lines and mix genres. Not that I’m mixing fantasy and sports and interior design but I’m not sure it fits perfectly into one of the standard genres.
If this is the case what is the best way to present it to the agent so that it makes sense and how would you recommend finding that agent? Or is it best to just stop being a flake and try to make your work fit a bit better into the industry nomenclature?
Thanks
Natalie Hatch says
Hey Nathan, just voted for you as Hottest Guy in Publishing…
https://gawker.com/tag/poll/?i=5016820&t=vote-for-the-hottest-guy-of-book-publishing-2008#poll_=ADMwUTM
think we should get the rest of the crew voting for you, maybe you’ll win a set of steak knives or something…
Anonymous says
Anon,
I’m not Nathan, but I think you’d want to think of it like this:
If youwalked into B&N tomorrow and found your book on the shelves…what section would it be in?
Take the name of that section, and use it for your “genre.”
If it could fit in more than 1 seciton, generally go with the section that appeals to a wider base of readers. But if it’s YA-anything–it’ll be YA.
If it doesn’t belong in any section, then you’ve written somehting that may not have commercial potential. Or just go ahead abbd label it “Literary” and buy a big bottle of whiskey.
Dawn says
Thank you for mentioning the Author Advocate Defense Fund, Nathan!
Dawn O’Bryan-Lamb
fund administrator
Jeff says
Doreen, I think you’ve nailed it. As a writer, it’s awfully romantic to think of oneself as an artist whose first purpose is to tell ones stories and to hell with the market and publishing. I write for me, right?
My wife, however, is a realist, not a writer. She often reminds me that if I want to be read, I have to write what people want to read. I don’t believe my art is any less pure because I want to be read. I want to succeed in the market.
I also want to remain true to myself. What I can’t afford to be is a romantic. As you said, you’re lying to yourself if you think you’re going to write a novel and then stick it in a drawer or just show it to your friends. Very few people invest years of their lives into something as massive as a novel without expecting some form of return, whether that is a glossy cover and an endcap at B&N, or the recognition of legions of Buffy fans. Our rewards come in many forms. There is nothing mercenary or impure about acknowledging the desire for the recognition and appreciation for the quality of your work.
Anonymous says
Nathan, thanks for all your info. Was wondering if you are still not taking on middle grade projects, unless they blow your mind?
Anonymous says
The first time I started to dare to share writing was through letters.
I was so flattered that people have kept my letters all these many years and told me they cherished them.
Someday, when my husband and I are dead, someone may want to publish our love letters.
These are all private writings though and very satisfying.
These differ from writing meant to be shared widely.
But, yes, not everything is valuable or made more valuable by public display or funding.
Quasipsyco says
I know I am coming into this a bit late, but….
The first point I would like to make is that most people are a touch myopic about their obsession. For someone who is into writing enough to find writing blogs and groups, writing is the end all be all.
As far as the original statement, “…why writing is viewed by so many as something that’s not worth doing unless it results in a gloss-covered product…..?”
The same things goes for actors, though the gloss-covered product is a opening night poster or DVD.
You never hear someone saying they want to act only for small plays. The goal is to be famous, on Broadway or on the silver screen. There is “no” second best.
The main difference is that people don’t think of acting as a hobby.
There are people who write for themselves. Who make up stories for kids and never write them down. They do not have a goal of being published and are happy as they are.
On the other-and more popular-hand, writers have limited feedback options. There are people who get enough feedback in writing/critique groups that they never move toward publishing. Those that do want more exposure.
Humans are rather self serving beings. We do things for praise or reward. Whether the praise is internal only or external only matters in terms of degrees.
Most people do not think of hobbies as career choices.
The few who do spend as much time and energy toward that goal as writers do toward getting published.
When I started knitting I thought it would just be fun projects for my own enjoyment. Then I started getting praise for my finished objects. This feeds the praise crave and I started sharing pics of my knitting with more people, joined knitting groups, found an online forum and have since learned that one can make a living off of knitting. All I have to do is write up great designs (kind of like programing), build a ‘name’ or ‘brand’, and then get my patterns published. After that I have to get a few more books done, start teaching classes and then people will pay for me to travel to their location for classes and signings and stuff.
Motivated people always want to reach the top. Everyone wants maximum praise.
Writers want to be published (which gives us the largest audience and possible fame).
Actors want to be the lead (in the largest audience format of their path and possible fame).
In knitting there is the goal of being published and being thought of as a source of knowledge and skill.
Joe Iriarte says
Oh, I disagree, Quasipsyco. I know *TONS* of people who do community theatre with no hope or aspiration of ever being professional actors. Ditto people who love to sing karaoke every week–not because it’s what’s happening at the bar, but because they love to sing–or sing in talent shows, again with no professional aspirations.