Comments on Nathan Bransford - Literary Agent: First Person or Third Person?

As a reader, I love delving into a novel in first ...

2010-04-16T13:04:26.677-07:00

As a reader, I love delving into a novel in first person, if that person is a vivid, seemingly real character. As a writer, I understand it's a delicate balance to strike, but I live to know my characters inside and out. I want someone to tell me their story--and when first person achieves that, I don't want to put the novel down. I feel like I've been on a journey with that person. Of course, it depends on the scale of the narrative, but I found that for my novel, first-person was the way to. My narrator has a short-lens perspective, and my beta readers love the mood of his narrative. As a writer, I love being him.

Actually, I like to use both first and third perso...

2009-08-29T01:48:33.053-07:00

Actually, I like to use both first and third person at different times for different reasons..... usually within the same story. (Let the fainting begin.) I know, I know, I've heard most of the reasons it's a bad idea, but it works for me. I like first for showing a character's reaction to certain situations, or just in general. It allows me to keep my work in the proper focus, and it allows me to add some punch to the story when it needs it.

But sometimes, I need to show more than first will allow. Maybe my main character is out cold, or too many things are happening in too many different locations for first person to be effective (For example, the bad guys overseeing battle preparations right after knocking out said character in the dungeon). That's when I step outside and see the entire world for myself. I can then show all the necessary parts I need in order to properly tell the story.

The problem with the mix the transition. Wither you're head hopping or not, you need to be sure your reader knows who's head you're in, or if you're in one at all. Plus keeping the flow of the story in tact is no easy feat, trust me I know. Still, as the saying goes, if it works for you, do it.

*looks at post* gee. Maybe I should start a blog of my own.

Nah.

Well, I started out writing in third person for ma...

2009-06-22T19:09:21.414-07:00

Well, I started out writing in third person for many years. An editor made a comment that he wasn't able to emphathize with my character's position, so I tried first person and it really snapped the story. I couldn't get my next novel going until I switched from third person to first and then my character really started talking. I think, however, if I'd started writing in first person, it might not have worked.

I gravitate towards first person because it elicit...

2009-06-17T11:12:59.407-07:00

I gravitate towards first person because it elicits more empathy out of me. I favor getting completely caught up and restless as I obsess over what the character is going through. I like getting cozy in the crawlspace of their mind and I tend to choose sides...so there you go. First person works for me!

I personally prefer to read in the 3rd person, but...

2009-06-11T23:07:36.887-07:00

I personally prefer to read in the 3rd person, but I feel like my strong point is writing in 1st person. Plus, I'm working on various MG projects and I feel like each one is working well in 1st. I hope so, at least.

Sometimes I feel like I'm at a party for someone else and yet I'm hogging the conversation and spotlight. That's what I'm a bit paranoid about with 1st person. Hmmm. Am I underestimating the MG readers by assuming they need 1st POV to follow along? Is 1stPOV the dummed down version or is it age appropriate?

hmmmm....I felt like I was doing the right thing, but I had to sneak this insecurity in here. Darn.

Interesting post! I always hated reading 1st perso...

2009-06-11T13:10:16.269-07:00

Interesting post! I always hated reading 1st person POV when I was growing up, although I've grown more used to it.

When I started writing, I always wrote in 3rd person POV. My current ms is in 1st person, but there's a reason for that. Whether the reason's good enough, I'll figure out in the rewrites.

I found it interesting - although annoying - in some books where it's all written in 1st person, but each chapter's written from a different person's POV (such as MY SISTER'S KEEPER by Jodi Picoult). It was probably necessary that she did change perspectives - although I'm not sure if she had to use first person - but I found it irritating as it kind of jerked me out of the story every new chapter.

I actually love the first person perspective (both...

2008-08-22T17:39:00.000-07:00

I actually love the first person perspective (both reading and writing) as well as the thrid person perspective. It all depends on what I am writing. For example, I am currently working on a manuscript that I started from the third person. Then, I found that I needed to to some character excersises, and I did those from the first person--and ultimately decided that the story is best told from the first person perspective. I also have a couple of different first person perspectives included--nothing crazy or anything. A short prolog that actaully sets the events of the book into motion (the story starts about 25 years after the event in the prolog) is narrated from the POV of a character that my protaginist will meet a few chapters in to the story. The rest of the story is narrated from the protaginist's POV.

Wow, great discusion.I let the story and character...

2007-07-11T10:11:00.000-07:00

Wow, great discusion.

I let the story and character mull a while before I sit to write the story. It's weird but usually I hear the narrative like a voice in my head:

"On the turn of Eli's sixteenth summer his master branded him for use in the minds."

I heard that clear as day when I sat down to write the story. Weird.

I'm not a big fan of first person. Mostly because it's so difficult to do really well. But I have written a short here and there in it. They just take me longer to polish up right. One I've been working on for six years now. It's going to be a great piece if it ever gets perfected.

I've never heard 3rd person described like that--where the tension is. I tend to write in close 3rd, so I suppose my tension is faulty. :) I just love getting deep in the heads of the characters. My lates WIP is basically 1st, written in deep 3rd. A little experiment.

I also think the "voice" tells you how close you need to get to show it properly. That's been my experiance, anyway (not a voice in my head--the voice on the page--for those now a little worried about me). ;)

I'd like to try pulling back and creating the higher level of tension.

This calls for a short story experiment...

So many 'do's and don'ts'. Show, not tell, don't ...

2007-07-11T01:35:00.000-07:00

So many 'do's and don'ts'. Show, not tell, don't use portals, dreams, adverbs, 'ing' words. Beef up verbs, get to the chase blah, blah, blah.

My YA mss was written in first. One woman from my online 'support' group said, "Wow, a whole novel in first. Not many would attempt it.
Good luck with that!" like it was a big 'no-no' in the literary world.

Although everyone else agreed the 'voice' was good, I felt I'd chosen the wrong POV. Broken another rule. Now I can't write without agonising over every sentence. No fun anymore.

I have an expectation for genre books to be writte...

2007-07-10T14:47:00.000-07:00

I have an expectation for genre books to be written in a certain POV.

Urban fantasy, as was mentioned earlier, is usually written in first person. When I stumble across one that isn't, it bothers me now. Most historicals seem to be written in third. Although, I do enjoy a well written historical done in first person.

I wrote my first two books in third person and switched to first person for the third. For me, it was a liberating switch.

Great Post Nathan. I liked your descriptions of b...

2007-07-10T13:57:00.000-07:00

Great Post Nathan. I liked your descriptions of both povs.

I've been drawn to first person pov but have to admit, if it isn't done well, it can be very dull and like an earlier post here said, the angst is over the top.

But when its done right, I find it the most rewarding ride as a reader.

Tammie

I started out in third and came to love first. I'v...

2007-07-10T13:31:00.000-07:00

I started out in third and came to love first.

I've read as much crap in first as I have in third. It's silly to think any kind is "easier." Since I was a beginning writer when I wrote in third, I tend ot think third is where people can go to escape from character voices, but I know that assessment has no more merit than the one here that says first is where people go to hide "tells." Neither is true. Both are true. It depends on the writer.

Instead of "likeable" I like the word "compelling." I hate Humbert Humbert, but I love the way he tells the story!

In writing, as in life, there are no hard and fast...

2007-07-10T13:25:00.000-07:00

In writing, as in life, there are no hard and fast rules. One has to find one's own way. Choosing whether to use 1st or 3rd person is not like deciding on a favorite color. Different narratives require different POV's, and one of the chief skills of the writer is in determining which will best serve his or her work.

As for all the "show don't tell" stuff, IMHO it's another one of those overused chestnuts. Amateur writers often tell things in a way that is boring; but many of the greatest writers tell plenty -- they just do it in a way that's interesting. Read Tolstoy, George Eliot, E. M. Forster, Thomas Hardy, Dostoyevsky, the list goes on and on -- you'll see plenty of telling. It just happens to be good telling.

I was surprised to not see you mention whether the...

2007-07-10T13:23:00.000-07:00

I was surprised to not see you mention whether the writer was any good at their choice. I personally find writing in the first person difficult. Charlie Stross' recent book, Glasshouse was interesting in its perspective. Most of the book was typical first-person, but there were a few parts that are not quite first-person.

At any rate, I am more comfortable in the third person perspective. Assess your skills. Know what you're good at, and especially know what you're rotten at.

I am reminded of what Miss Snark had to say about ...

2007-07-10T10:34:00.000-07:00

I am reminded of what Miss Snark had to say about POV:

http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2006/03/you-gotta-be-you.html

http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2005/10/miss-snark-loves-you.html

I'm glad to see there isn't so much negative response to first person here. If you pay attention to what you are doing, the writing will tell you what POV to use. I like 3rd person. My first book (at querying stage now) and second book (working on second draft) are in 3rd person, and work well.

But when I got to my third book (first draft completed), staying in 3rd person would have been a mistake. The book is a sci-fi about a man who thinks he is a normal human being, who discovers he is a cyborg, an AI experiment who has a computer instead of a brain. Telling this story from anything other than his first person POV would not have been nearly as effective.

AWP :)

My current WIP is written in third person, multipl...

2007-07-10T10:02:00.000-07:00

My current WIP is written in third person, multiple POV. I go inside the heads of about five characters, three of them supporting characters. It's a supernatural novel. I'm currently blogging about it (no spoilers) at http://tbdeluxe.blogspot.com/.

I'm also writing a short story, another supernatural tale, but this one I'm telling 1st Person from the *monster's* POV. He's certainly not *likeable*, but I'm managing to make him (or It) compelling and interesting. And very funny, I hope.

Both these decisions I arrived at fairly easily with little internal debate. It seems to have been an intuition thing with me. I'm glad you brought this up, Nathan. I'll think about it some more and discuss it in upcoming blogs about my book.

POV is the biggest bug-a-boo I struggle with as a ...

2007-07-10T09:16:00.000-07:00

POV is the biggest bug-a-boo I struggle with as a writer.

I found this book to be a huge help:

Characters and Viewpoint by Orson Scott Card

I have a list of other essential writing advice books on my blogroll at:

http://josephinedamian.blogspot.com

This is always an interesting topic, and so subjec...

2007-07-10T07:01:00.000-07:00

This is always an interesting topic, and so subjective obviously given the posts here. I like both forms, though amusingly enough, my first completed novel is first person while all my years of writing before were third. First person is easier in a sense to write. You only have one lense to view the story with, unless of course you try more than one first person pov in the story. This is what I attempted, and it proved to be much more challenging than writing in third. The difficult part is making each voice unique and credible. So every time I changed scenes into a new pov, it would take me a bit of rereading, changing mindset, mood, etc. to get into that voice instead of the one I'd just been writing. I'm not sure I pulled it off very well, and as hard as it was, it was great fun trying to write that way. It really forces you to think about each character and what makes them different than the others and how they would view events differently. I likely shot myself in the foot trying to write a suspense with multiple first person pov's, since I don't really know of anything in the genre that's done that, and likely may be because no agents/editors like to see stories like that or maybe the reading public for that matter. I think though that if it's done well multiple pov's make for a more interesting read.

JDuncan
www.jimnduncan.com

Great Post. I guess it is more important to have a...

2007-07-10T02:23:00.000-07:00

Great Post.
I guess it is more important to have an interesting narrator, than a like able narrator.

Just a question: is there a good novel with an antagonist in First P?

I find that some character Voices lend themselves ...

2007-07-09T23:55:00.000-07:00

I find that some character Voices lend themselves more to one or the other, and that's basically how I choose. By ear. :-)

As to which POV is easier to write, I think they have different pitfalls. Novice first person tends to be full of outside descriptions of the character, which tends to make the character seem acutely self-aware and self-centered. Novice third person tends to be full of head-hopping and hence a lot of "telling" about what everyone's thinking.

Selene

John said, "I think first person is easier to writ...

2007-07-09T22:27:00.000-07:00

John said, "I think first person is easier to write... but it's really difficult to write first person well-- to pull it off, harder I think than third." And SSaS said, "Surprising how much bad writing I've found in my first person work. It hides many ills."

I agree entirely. Lazy writing manifests differently, but I think first person hides it with more cunning. E.g., in first person it can be more difficult to show rather than tell. When we're angry, we think to ourselves, "That guy made me mad." And it seems natural to write what we'd think. Adding swear words ("that @#$! guy") may be more realistic here, but it dilutes the telling even more. Better would be something like, "I wished I'd had Gramps' old hand grenade to lob into that guy's car."

Laziness is laziness, and it can happen in any POV, but "The bad driver made John angry" is much easier to highlight than "Oh, I was so mad." (Or so say I. YMMV.)

Regarding Huck Finn: A perfect example of masterful first person. Not only does it have the strong dialect, but it's got incredible voice. Well, what do you think? --that muleheaded old fool wouldn't give in then! Indeed he wouldn't. Said it warn't no fair test.... And so he warmed up and went warbling and warbling right along til he was actuly beginning to believe what he was saying....

Third person POV would have to have a strongly voiced, independent narrator to accomplish that kind of impact. Which, of course, is exactly what Nathan is talking about. Here we get Huck's perspective on the exchange rather than an outside observer's perspective, complete with his own interpretation of something he doesn't understand.

Which is all academic, though, because it comes down to the way you want your reader to interact (or not) with the story, the characters, and the scenes.

Normally I hate the POV wars (it reminds me so much of the Windows versus OS/2 days!), but this post and the comments made me think in a different way about it. Thanks.

My current wip is a faux-historical quest novel wr...

2007-07-09T20:53:00.000-07:00

My current wip is a faux-historical quest novel written in multiple thirds. I have to work on keeping the scenes of each character in proportion to the roles they play, but it's fun to see how the technique can be used for playing hide and seek within a story.

I'm with Ian. First person for short works, and t...

2007-07-09T20:31:00.000-07:00

I'm with Ian. First person for short works, and third person for longer. Sometimes I put my first person works through the "third person test" to make sure it's not just voice that's carrying the story. Surprising how much bad writing I've found in my first person work. It hides many ills.

Generally, though, as an editor, I don't care which, you know?

I really recommend that anyone who has Usenet acce...

2007-07-09T20:29:00.000-07:00

I really recommend that anyone who has Usenet access take a look at some of the material that Patricia Wrede has written on rec.arts.sf.composition about Point of View, especially the difference between tight third POV and omniscent POV. She lays it out in a good and understandable way.

Note: I strongly suggest lurking and getting the feel of rasfc before posting! The newsgroup isn't necessarily tolerant of folks leaping in without checking things out. But there *are* useful discussions therein, that is, when we aren't arguing about cats, chocolate and educational/Libertarian/economic politics.

For myself--I've written two novels in tight third in the last ten months, and a third with a more omniscent, multiple-viewpoint third. The tight third (non-omniscent) was more work for me, as I'm used to hopping heads, but I've been using it as a form of discipline. Even though the multiple-viewpoint one was more recent, it's the one that needs the most fixing , from my observation.

And as for first person--we hates first person, my preciousss, hates it we do.....

Two things:I think first person is easier to write...

2007-07-09T19:43:00.000-07:00

Two things:

I think first person is easier to write, esp for a beginning writer. But it's really difficult to write first person well-- to pull it off, harder I think than third.

Also, know your genre preference. I write urban fantasy, and I would guess 95% of published urban fantasies are first person. Doesn't mean they have to be, but it's something to consider.