Comments on Nathan Bransford - Literary Agent: Sympathetic vs. Unsympathetic Characters

One of the best examples of this is the movie High...

2009-06-17T12:19:54.731-07:00

One of the best examples of this is the movie High Fidelity. John Cusack's character is completely deplorable, self-loathing, aloof and border-line insane...yet you want him to get the girl. How does THAT guy end up getting the girl?! Genius...and a side of John Cusack.

Enjoyed this, thanks Nathan

2009-03-01T06:33:36.659-08:00

Enjoyed this, thanks Nathan

I loved this post. My current protag is what I wou...

2009-02-28T16:08:37.928-08:00

I loved this post. My current protag is what I would call an anti-heroine. She's an alcoholic, exotic dancer who always makes the wrong decision and consistently lets the male hero down, yet I have received an enormous ammount of comments saying that they don't think my protag is an anti-heroine, because she is too likeable. But heck, I loved Duddy Kravitz and he was a world class schumuck. You don't have to be a hero/ heroine to be likeable.

When it comes to lit, sometimes it just feels good to root for the person who doesn't do the right thing. My theory is that we seek to find oursleves in characters. They can act out th ethings we fear to do ourselves, or mirror the things that we have blundered. And, you are right Nathan, as long as those characters can still be redeemed from their actions, or still appear crafty at least, there is hope for the rest of us mere mortals.

But if you read a book and then think that you kno...

2009-02-28T10:49:09.534-08:00

But if you read a book and then think that you know some deep secrets about the authors psyche or emotional make up, you are both insulting the author and diminishing the art.

Exactly! And well said.

I totally agree about how annoying it is when someone thinks your FICTION is about you, the writer.

That's a deal breaker in a writers' group.

Yep, yep. It's intrusive, that line of thinking and there are enough reasons for a writer to pull back for fear without lending credence to the idea that their fiction is a statement on their person. What if I wanted to write about a serial killer, or date rapist, or well any other of a myriad of unsympathetic characteristics? Who would tackle those stories if they were assured that the vast majority of readers would mistake them with their characters?

Mira,

It was nice to meet and chat with you, too.

I will say, briefly, in my defense, I was talking about the psychological process involved in writing a story, not motivation or depth of imagination.

This statement was the exact thing I was disagreeing with, and still do. I loved literary analysis in high school and college - and still do in literary discussions. It's fun for mental gymnastics to decipher many layers that may or may not have been intentionally drawn into a work. And I understand the draw to comparing an author's life with their work.

Sometimes there's vast reasons to suppose that the story works out personal issues. Certainly that case has been made by many literati on some of the classics. But it's a supposition, not a fact. I can't agree with armchair psychology for every work of every writer, and while specific cases may lend some merit to the exercise, I think the intrusiveness of trying to maintain this thesis as a blanket to cover all writer's psychological process is both wrong and dangerous. Especially if you're a writer.

Likely we're not going to agree on this. But thanks for the discussion.

I have an anti-hero, so this is of particular inte...

2009-02-27T15:30:35.997-08:00

I have an anti-hero, so this is of particular interest to me. My goal is to show sympathy in small things he does or about him from the get-go. Also, I try to give a good reason for why he does the things he does. I also add in other reasons for a reader to be intrigued by him, to keep interest in him high.

So it's extra work and an extra struggle to keep him sympathetic enough, but my character and his story is worth it in the end.

Jodi

I read my first novel, a murder mystery, to my sis...

2009-02-27T11:10:09.330-08:00

I read my first novel, a murder mystery, to my sister while we were on a long car trip. She loved it until it was revealed that the murderer was her favorite character, she was pissed. Lesson learned.
Paddy

I think Gollum was the perfect portrayal of the ho...

2009-02-27T09:29:14.572-08:00

I think Gollum was the perfect portrayal of the hopeless addict completely seduced by his addiction, while waves of his previous humanity surface for bare moments making us realize the cost.The movie portrayal made him even more sympathetic, even dear at times. He could have once been a real boy.

Re: Iron Man -- Robert Downey Jr. OOZES charisma a...

2009-02-27T08:56:52.146-08:00

Re: Iron Man -- Robert Downey Jr. OOZES charisma and intelligence. I think he could play any villain and I'd like him.

And I have to agree with Roland on the subject of "Slumdog Millionaire." Some of the characters were totally inconsistent, IMHO, and the romance was just thrown in and had no real emotional resonance.

How come "The Visitor" didn't win or even get nominated? Now THERE'S a convincing character arc where the MC is redeemed.

I think we are not allowed to be evil or bad ourse...

2009-02-27T08:49:54.832-08:00

I think we are not allowed to be evil or bad ourselves, so we project some of it vicariously out onto the evil or badass characters and satisfy the element. It is allowed in *fantasy* but not permitted in reality.

We all have an ability to feel a full range of emotions.
Our safeguards keep us from acting out from criminal or socially unacceptable or unethical reactions.

(Thank goodness.)

And our good impulses react inside of us often passionately against the evil character who does and is able to act out his badness.

But on some level, we have our bad *fantasies* and they can be thrilling or disgusting or both.
In some cases, we walk away and separate from bad characters and we should.We are too evolved for them to interest or thrill us. In other instances, they are like that BAD CAT Bucky and we need him in the room.

And Roy,

I totally agree about how annoying it is when someone thinks your FICTION is about you, the writer.

That's a deal breaker in a writers' group.

Definitely one of your better post, Nathan. I thin...

2009-02-27T06:58:46.135-08:00

Definitely one of your better post, Nathan. I think over this issue quite a bit as well, especially when it comes to villains. While it is sometimes the case I have trouble thinking most villains are bad just to be bad. A lot of the time, as with the war against terrorism in our own lives, the bad guys actually think they are good. Why do they think this? What motivates them? It's a complex question that can apply to all villains.

Vampires is a simple example. Most (Until recently, that is) see them as bad because they kill people, but vampires don't kill people just to be evil (in most cases). They do it because they have to in order to live. Same with the carnivorous animals in stories. The raptors in Jurassic Park didn't want to eat Dr. Grant because they were evil, but because they were hungry. Given logical minds would they view their hunting of prey as noble as humans often do?

Simple examples, I know, but I think they help prove my point. Villains who view themselves as good, or who even have what they consider noble motivations, are often far more interesting than those who are just evil. This is why Dexter is able to carry a whole show on his own.

I love some of the examples presented here, I love...

2009-02-27T06:52:33.957-08:00

I love some of the examples presented here, I loved Nabokov’s treatment of Humbert Humbert, and I am a Thomas Harris fan as well, and I have 79 episodes of HOUSE DVR'd. Confessions all. But having a sympathetic villain, as some have mentioned above, IMHO is key. I am surprised we have not heard from LOTR fans here, especially after the Vader reference. GOLLUM/Smeagol has to be the most sympathetic villain of all time. I think Tolkien almost went over the top to make sure that we as readers understood that he should be pitied. But redeemable? Gollum? Hmmmmm….

A final morsel for thought... What if your likeable character does something terrible? My MC sets off a bomb that kills a pile of civilians and women and children. My character is emotionally distraught over it and may never recover. He has erroneously over mixed some chemicals and the bomb is too powerful. So read accidental LARGE explosion. Should I have this happen at the end, or early on so he has to deal with it throughout the story? I kind of thought of this scene as the climax, but I do want people to read the next book I write! ;) (And this one when I finish.)

Do you think we are compelled by evil characters b...

2009-02-27T05:57:20.678-08:00

Do you think we are compelled by evil characters because perhaps a teeny part of our being can identify with a certain flaw? I often asked myself what intrigued me about Heathcliff and Cathy. And why do I keep rooting for Darth Vader? (Was it because he was such a good-looking Anakin Skywalker?) Those characters are complex and interesting because their evil actions seemed to somewhat motivated by their warped sense of love.

Anyway, fun discussion item.

This is really helpful."This may or may not be acc...

2009-02-27T05:00:54.961-08:00

This is really helpful.

"This may or may not be accompanied by flinging a book against the wall."

Sure hope you're not reading it on a Kindle at this point....

I'm on a big Friday Night Lights kick for the last...

2009-02-26T23:08:12.668-08:00

I'm on a big Friday Night Lights kick for the last two months. Not only is it a fabulous show just to watch, it's like a master class in story telling and character development.

Tim Riggins is, for me, the pinnacle of what you're talking about with likability and redeemability. He's totally messed up and makes all kinds of horrible choices but he's got so much heart and potential. (And okay, okay, the fact that he's ridiculously hot helps, but it wouldn't be enough if he wasn't also a good person inside.)

I concur. I put down a highly acclaimed mystery af...

2009-02-26T22:22:54.258-08:00

I concur. I put down a highly acclaimed mystery after the protag did something unconscionable. And for me (a mother of 3) it was not coming home while his wife was miscarrying a baby. That was it. It didn't matter that he didn't totally get what was going on. She was pregnant. He should have gone home. There was no going back.

And yet I can forgive Jack Bauer all manner of sins - he was there for his wife when she was in trouble!

I always think of Vic Mackey from TV's The Shield ...

2009-02-26T21:18:52.756-08:00

I always think of Vic Mackey from TV's The Shield as a great example of a terrible character who you can't help liking, even though he has done things so heinous you shouldn't be able to like him AT ALL. So well written -- and acted. The Wire is full of characters that walk that fine line too. Why can I only think of TV examples and not books? I read. I swear :-)

I don't think it has much to do with redeemability...

2009-02-26T18:44:40.004-08:00

I don't think it has much to do with redeemability and a lot to do with motivation.

If an evil character is motivated by something the reader understands and identifies with, then the reader will like that character. Look at a lot of the comments..."I liked him until he did something heinous and arbitrary...there was no reason for it".

Evil+reasons you understand = likeable

Evil+reasons you don't understand = hated

Honestly, who wanted Darth Vader to reedem himself, strip off his awesome black suit and become a wimpy jedi knight? We loved him because he was a total badass, yet was motivated by things we understood.

A tragedy factor also helps a lot.

Nice post, Nathan! Thanks for giving me something ...

2009-02-26T17:29:21.142-08:00

Nice post, Nathan! Thanks for giving me something new to ponder today.

My friends and I feel this way about Robert Downey Jr.'s Tony Stark. You can make a pretty long list of hideous traits (sexist pig being pretty high on the list) and yet every woman I know who's seen Iron Man LOVES him.

On the other hand, I recently read a romance where I disliked the heroine so much that I actually felt bad that the hero got her in the end. He could have done so much better.

Well said, Merry, your points are excellent. I ag...

2009-02-26T17:28:47.848-08:00

Well said, Merry, your points are excellent. I agree with your comments about the relationship between author and reader.

General statements are just not applicable when there are so many variants that come into play when we create our stories and our characters. Readers will always be subjective about why they like a particular character, regardless of the character traits given them by the writer.

This post is both helpful and timely. I've been p...

2009-02-26T17:17:40.633-08:00

This post is both helpful and timely. I've been puzzling a lot lately over why some beta readers and others who critique my ms don't love my protag. I can see it more clearly now. I guess unless I expect my readers to read my mind as well as my pages, I have some fleshing out to do...

Oh."The things that I am are greater than the thin...

2009-02-26T16:59:24.751-08:00

Oh.

"The things that I am are greater than the things that I do/write."

Amen to that, Roy.

Completely agree with that.

Hi Roy and Merry,Nice to meet and chat with you. ...

2009-02-26T16:57:44.306-08:00

Hi Roy and Merry,

Nice to meet and chat with you.
:-)

Sadly, I realized I'm all argued out from earlier in the week. Shoot. It's too bad, I usually love a good argument, and you make some juicy points I'd love to chew on.

I will say, briefly, in my defense, I was talking about the psychological process involved in writing a story, not motivation or depth of imagination.

With that, maybe Henry or someone else will take up the counter-point to the argument.

Or not. It's good to have different perspectives on things.

Even if, ultimately, I am always right.

Just kidding.

(not really.) :-)

I read an interesting article about how to keep a ...

2009-02-26T15:56:42.909-08:00

I read an interesting article about how to keep a character sympathetic even when they're doing Very Bad Things. Key tricks involve showing them having doubts and showing other characters liking them. In fiction as in life, we are more likely to empathize with characters that we see other people empathizing with. Having the character show affection towards others, including pets, is also a biggie. My work in progress has a character who has to do terrible, awful things to nice people for all the right reasons, so I'm going to be pulling out all the stops to keep him likable, up to and including the use of cute, fuzzy animals.

Mira,I have to agree with Merry on this. There ar...

2009-02-26T15:55:08.118-08:00

Mira,

I have to agree with Merry on this. There are so many ways and methods to use when writing and finding your characters voices. I think that making a blanket statements, "The main protagonist in a book is the writer" or "any book is actually the writer's unconscious working things out."

For me, I use a great deal of imagination when I write fiction. I think that some people write from their own persona's, and some people write from research and observation, and so forth.

But if you read a book and then think that you know some deep secrets about the authors psyche or emotional make up, you are both insulting the author and diminishing the art.

Hmmm. That sounds harsh. If so, then I apologize. But its a pet peeve that I have been accused of before. I am not my job. The things that I am are greater than the things that I do/write.

Harry Flashman, the protagonist of the book series...

2009-02-26T15:53:04.805-08:00

Harry Flashman, the protagonist of the book series by George MacDonald Fraser, is a great example of a truly unlikable character that you like. He is a liar, cheat, philanderer, coward, and general all-around scoundrel, but he is a lot of fun, and despite his inclinations, things somehow turn out well.