Comments on Nathan Bransford, Author: How to Respond to a Manuscript Critique/Editorial ...

Critiques can be really painful. For those writers...

2011-12-12T13:59:27.258-08:00

Critiques can be really painful. For those writers considering getting a professional critique before submitting a manuscript to an agent or publisher (which often is a great idea), this is a great post:
http://wordplay-kmweiland.blogspot.com/2011/12/one-dish-of-critiquebut-hold-criticism.html

Good material, thank you.

2010-03-23T07:45:51.161-07:00

Good material, thank you.

This is sheer genius. It should be essential readi...

2009-12-07T06:26:37.331-08:00

This is sheer genius. It should be essential reading. I'm about to go through a line edit of book 2, but before I do I'm blogging about this post and how important it is for any writer who's lucky enough to be read by professionals. It's surprising just how painful it is and you make it much easier to manage.

I learned about this blog through "Anita'...

2009-12-06T12:28:14.089-08:00

I learned about this blog through "Anita's Edge." BTW, I enjoyed reading your post. Anywho, it's funny how things work out.

Yesterday, I posted a draft of the prologue to my novel on my blogsite. I hoped that my "five followers" would give me some insightful and thoughtful feedback.

The first response I received was indeed helpful, but vague. When I read it to my husband, he echoed your sentiments, "Listen to your gut." Perhaps the universe is trying to tell me something. Maybe I need to quit second guessing myself and just stick to the writing. I'll worry about the rest later.
Best wishes on your novel.

i guess it boils down to: trust. trust that the p...

2009-12-04T07:22:16.907-08:00

i guess it boils down to:

trust. trust that the professional you've received feedback from is good at his or her job (which, hopefully, is why you picked him or her) and knows how to bring your work to market.

gut. go with your gut if you know a suggestion is changing the integrity of the work, but try to get to the root of the suggestion rather than dismiss it. there might be an underlying thread that is important.

great post, nathan. thanks.

I'm sure you've seen The Intern's rece...

2009-12-03T16:21:42.156-08:00

I'm sure you've seen The Intern's recent reaction to her own editorial letter? Very interesting.

Thank you for such an honest, relatable and import...

2009-12-03T09:57:26.900-08:00

Thank you for such an honest, relatable and important post. It's good to remember that the editor and the writer are on the same team with the same purpose: make the book its best. You did an excellent job pointing that out.

You know, your look at this is critical for both seasoned and beginning writers, but especially for beginners who don't understand that *all work needs editing.

One thing I usually do differently than you suggested, especially with fiction, is #4: tackling one editing change at a time. I do tackle them all at once. I'm not saying my way is better. Neva-neva! It's just that my *process works best when I tackle all at once. Let me tell you why.

If I went through the whole ms. and changed one element, I'd ultimately waste lots of time rewriting rewrites. During *my rewrite process, convos and other character's motives/actions might change the course of the original string of corrections, so tackling together creates the best corrective synergy in *my brain.

Does it cause extra checking? Yes. But it saves multiple rounds of editing the edits. However, I am a "pantser," so file that where you will. :)

Again, excellent post. Just excellent.

When a change is suggested that I don't agree ...

2009-12-03T08:15:42.049-08:00

When a change is suggested that I don't agree with, it's often because I haven't made some underlying cause/effect/condition clear earlier. So if I find myself explaining at length (even if it's only in my head) why that change is impossible, usually those explanations haven't been made in the manuscript. So I have to go back and make sure the framework supports the whole - again!

It's difficult to hear from a critique partner...

2009-12-02T20:13:53.475-08:00

It's difficult to hear from a critique partner, especially mine.

My CP was an editor for a small publisher, so on my last WIP when she told me that I had "moustache twirling" dialogue from my villian, I nearly fainted. LOL. :-D But when I read the dialogue aloud, it did have that, "Aha, I've got you now" feel to it. LOL. So, she was right and my dialogue on my current WIP is WAAAAY better. :-D

Yep, that's what I meant. Thank you, Ink!

2009-12-02T18:18:26.461-08:00

Yep, that's what I meant. Thank you, Ink!

Jenn, Being receptive to criticism does not mean ...

2009-12-02T12:02:45.520-08:00

Jenn,

Being receptive to criticism does not mean taking every bit of advice. It means evaluating the advice and using whatever will help improve your story (by whatever standards you, the writer, choose to apply).

If someone told Stephen King something stupid it's his job as a writer not to take the stupid advice. (I'm sure he gets a ton - I bet reading his fan mail is an interesting experience) But that doesn't mean he's never taken advice, critique, editorial suggestions, etc. His wife, if I recall, is always his first reader and critter. And I'm sure he has an agent and editor.

It's not, I think, a matter of arrogance (and ignoring any opinion but your own) but rather a confidence in your vision that allows you to discern what will be useful and what won't.

Great post, Nathan! I joined a crit group in Oct. ...

2009-12-02T09:09:46.388-08:00

Great post, Nathan! I joined a crit group in Oct. Wish I read this when I first joined. It was overwhelming at first, depending on which crits were given. You are so right about taking a couple days and then going back to it. That is what I did and it sure helped.

Hope you had a great holiday! So thankful for your blog:)

No 5 - is the most applicable to me ... you just h...

2009-12-02T08:22:41.063-08:00

No 5 - is the most applicable to me ... you just have to simply take a number of deep breaths and calm down - my agent always seems to be correct, when I stop and really think about what has been said, but I rarely think that to start with!

A wonderful piece - with brilliant advice .... thank you!

Seren

I can't believe I'm arguing for arrogance....

2009-12-02T07:15:31.744-08:00

I can't believe I'm arguing for arrogance...I'm not, really!! I do agree with the person who said arrogance disconnects us from others and is counterproductive, but there are breakthrough writers who are trying something different and will not be understood by publish-hungry critique partners and some publishing professionals to begin with.

What if Stephen King was told not to make us care a about a character and then kill him/her off? That might be sound advice for beginning horror genre writers, but I'm glad he broke that rule and endured rejection after rejection until he found someone who got it.

And Jodi Picoult, what if people told her she can't have characters we care about who do unlikeable things? She, also, broke the rules and endured more than her share of rejections before she got published.

I wrote two edgier YA books that got nibbles from agents, but no takers. Then I wrote a more innocent one and got a lot more nibbles and an agent. So, at some level I sold out to fit into my genre better, but now my agent is trying to sell my edgier books too, so it turned out for the best.

For those trying to buck the system, especially at the critique partner level and with potential agents who want revisions before signing, you need to decide if going against the grain is worth it sometimes even though it's a harder row to hoe...and maybe that takes a more stubborn belief in your vision and talent, if not arrogance.

Great post & great timing, Nathan, as I am exp...

2009-12-02T07:12:09.287-08:00

Great post & great timing, Nathan, as I am expecting my first ed letter any time now. Thanks!

Steve- The great writers listen to feedback and m...

2009-12-02T06:58:00.414-08:00

Steve-

The great writers listen to feedback and make their work better. No one is such a genius that they can't improve their work with good editing.

Steve, It seems like you're misconstruing the...

2009-12-02T03:41:50.099-08:00

Steve,

It seems like you're misconstruing the editorial process. We're not talking "writing to editorial order", but a writer receiving feedback and applying it where they deem appropriate. And, yes, certainly I think Mr. Clemens/Twain would consider feedback. Being aware of how people receive your writing (and using that knowledge to make your work better) is simply part of the job. I think the idea of the "untouched" genius who has never had help from another person is a romantic fallacy.

Unbounded genius and talent is great, but success requires a huge amount of work, and a large part of that work is the continuous act of grappling with weaknesses and flaws in an attempt to improve a sentence, a paragraph, a story. No one is just hatched into a writerly version of perfect grace. Feedback is part of the journey.

Nathan, (If you're still reading this thread....

2009-12-02T02:12:26.763-08:00

Nathan,

(If you're still reading this thread.) Maybe we mean something a little different by a "great" writer. I'm talking about people who come along maybe just a handful per century. Somebody like Mark Twain, for instance. Not sure if we even have any living right now.

Could you imagine Sam Clemens rewriting to editorial order?

-Steve

Every critique comment I get, usually sends me int...

2009-12-01T23:37:46.810-08:00

Every critique comment I get, usually sends me into the 5 Stages of Grief:

Denial: "What? Of course electric blue unicorns who spit fire are still 'in'! The person has no idea what (s)he is talking about."

Anger: "the %*@^#^% wouldn't know a blue unicorn if it bit him/her on the @$$!"

Bargaining: "Getting this critique doesn't mean I'm a bad writer right?"

Depression: "I love my blue unicorn and it makes me the worst writer in the world for liking, nay, loving them!"

Acceptance: "Yeah. That unicorn really has no place there."

I have found that I go through these quicker when I can bounce the big 5 off a friend.

My equivalent to #5 is "Always pay special at...

2009-12-01T20:56:01.418-08:00

My equivalent to #5 is "Always pay special attention to critiques that you immediately reject." I find that defensive speediness is almost as reliable as anger.

This is getting to be an interesting conversation,...

2009-12-01T20:30:44.103-08:00

This is getting to be an interesting conversation, is it not?

Gordon, I appreciate the elaboration on certain points. My feeling is that no matter how great you are, no matter how firm you have to be in defense of your work, it's possible to be polite and considerate of the people on the other end. Sure, you have to make considered judgments, and trust your own instincts in the end. As you pointed out, there's a risk of losing there. That risk is massively reduced if you're nice to the people you're dealing with.

I don't believe that it's possible to separate arrogance about your writing work from arrogance in your personal life. One will inevitably spill over into the other. I agree that you need a lot of faith in yourself and what you are doing, yes. Faith and confidence and endless determination. Arrogance, on the other hand, will slowly but surely strangle your connection to the human race, and in the end, be the death of any good you might otherwise do.

I'm looking forward to having an agent read my work and offer suggestions. I expect to value what this second pair of eyes can point out. I also expect that I'll be willing to make certain changes, while standing firm on others. To me, that won't be arrogance, or ruthlessness, but a matter of principle. There are some things that matter to the integrity of the story (and even to my integrity as a writer), but not all.

My operating rule is: proceed with confidence and consideration, and pick your battles wisely. :-)

Wordver: necorcos

Um, I don't even want to know....

First off, I've had both a non-editing agent a...

2009-12-01T17:09:34.016-08:00

First off, I've had both a non-editing agent and an editing agent, and I much prefer the agent who's willing to put on the editing hat from time to time. It helps that she's good at it, and is open to conversing about matters when I don't agree.

Next, about Faulkner's quote...can you imagine how a local or even online writer's group would tear apart his or Vonnegut's work if submitted by an unpublished writer? I agree that you need a bit of arrogance and commitment to your vision when writing breakthrough fiction like theirs, but for us genre writers, our goal is to entertain, write characters readers can care about, and (hopefully) throw in a few lines of brilliance every now and then. Input and editing can only enhance that.

Finally, I suggest writing an email in Word or save it in Drafts when upset about feedback from someone who can impact your career. DO NOT SEND IT. EVER. The letter is for you to vent and sort things out.

2009-12-01T17:03:30.112-08:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

Susan, I'm guessing it's more case by cas...

2009-12-01T16:09:05.151-08:00

Susan,

I'm guessing it's more case by case, based around what they think a particular book needs. But I say that without much experience of big publishers. My editing background is mostly freelance (where people pay me specifically for that deep cut) or as a lit mag editor, where there's lots of vetting (selection) and copyediting but only a little deep editing.

Anyway, that's my guess, that it's more about the specific thoughts of the editor on a particular book (though editors are human and if a low priority book needed some editing when they were swamped with other stuff...)

Gordon, Okay, I agree with that more than your pr...

2009-12-01T16:01:51.479-08:00

Gordon,

Okay, I agree with that more than your previous comment, but I wouldn't go so far as to say agents shouldn't be mucking about with that stuff. Yes, some agents are probably more deal brokers than editors, but many will be great editors - for many that's probably part of what drew them to the job. Heck, many agents are former editors from major or minor publishers. And why wouldn't an agent see a great manuscript that has a couple problems that might hamper its selling but that the agent thinks they can help the writer correct? It's the same thing the editor will do before putting it before the public. If they have the skills they have the skills - and I'm guessing that many of them do.

And it's still up to the writer to determine the course of action, what suggestions to take or not to take. The agents editorial comments should speak for themself. If they're spot on and will help you make the manuscript better, great. If they don't, then don't take them. I don't think you can fault an agent for offering editorial suggestions... it's the writer's task to sort and evaluate such comments, and apply where needed. It's up to the writer not to take bad advice.