Comments on Nathan Bransford, Author: Guest Blog Week: Critiquing Critiques

Now I'm hungry.

2009-09-04T05:08:50.131-07:00

Now I'm hungry.

Wonderful!

2009-08-22T10:49:42.846-07:00

Wonderful!

When it comes to discussions about critique I alwa...

2009-08-20T12:45:59.500-07:00

When it comes to discussions about critique I always think of the great poem about the workshop model by Billy Collins.

If you haven't read it you can follow this link to a copy:

http://alilsumpinsumpin.blogspot.com/2009/04/billy-collins-on-workshop-model.html

2009-08-20T12:41:33.397-07:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

Great advice! I love getting feedback because I k...

2009-08-12T16:33:16.074-07:00

Great advice! I love getting feedback because I know it helps me – I want to be the best storyteller/writer I can be. However I am always scared to return the favor. I am afraid to hurt someone’s feelings. I like the sandwich approach and will try it the next time I am asked for a review.

Great advice. Giving and receiving critiques can b...

2009-08-10T12:42:38.683-07:00

Great advice. Giving and receiving critiques can be difficult and its important to remember that its only for the betterment of the writing so don't be afraid to say what you think. Being honest, both when critiquing and getting critiqued, is really important. I think a lot of people will find this post really helpful. Thanks for posting!

Marjorie, I think this is central to the point o...

2009-08-10T10:39:28.236-07:00

Marjorie,

I think this is central to the point of re-writing based on critiques:

Rule # 4: Look for common threads in the feedback and start there. The advice of the many outweighs the advice of the few.

If 1 person didn't like or didn't get something, it may just be that one person. Worth noting, but may not warrant any further action.

However, if all 5 people didn't like the same thing, you need to think about why they didn't like it. The gray area is what you do to fix it. The 5 people may each have a different suggestion to fix it, and you may have a "6th" suggestion of your own. Which fix is implemented is the writer's choice (as is doing nothing).

I've often followed this rule in business and it also works well for writing:

- Manage to trends, not incidents.

Marjorie, The point is not that you make changes ...

2009-08-10T10:00:38.745-07:00

Marjorie,

The point is not that you make changes just because someone suggests them. You make changes because someone suggests them and you agree with these changes and think they will make the writing better. If you don't agree, don't make the changes. The key to having people read and offer critique is that it allows you an opportunity to see the writing objectively. The writer is not always right, and sometimes they will see that when offered critique. But the most important thing is not the critique... it's what you do with it. A fantastic critique is useless if you can't apply it in a way that makes your writing better. And a poor overall critique might be useful if it helps you change one small thing element that hasn't been working. In other words, critique is useless without analysis. You have to see evaluate every comment and see whether it supports the creative vision you have for that particular piece.

Just my two cents.

Best,
Bryan

CKHB, Can I politely disagree? Or, at least, offe...

2009-08-10T09:54:48.416-07:00

CKHB,

Can I politely disagree? Or, at least, offer a variant opinion on the opposing crit comments? My thoughts are here if you're interested. In a nutshell, there's advantage in evaluating each critique separately...

re: "EVERYONE thinks a character is unlikeabl...

2009-08-10T09:10:51.069-07:00

re: "EVERYONE thinks a character is unlikeable, and he's not supposed to be? Better get re-writing."

Why? Leave it as it is. My memoir in a blog is supposed to be funny. Many people read it and find it sad. I will not rewrite one word of it so those who do not find it funny will. Their reaction is their reaction... and that's what makes is so darn good.

I am totally against rewriting based on critiques....

2009-08-10T09:03:18.276-07:00

I am totally against rewriting based on critiques. Five people can have five criticisms. A writer would be rewriting to please readers instead of maintaining his writing integrity. Who cares if something doesn't feel right to one reader. It has to feel right to the author and then the work finds the audience. Rewrites based on readers' feedbacks seems just wrong.

Woody Allen did a small rewrite when asked by The New Yorker.

I am sure J.D. Salinger never did.

Other thoughts: Don't go to a crit group if a...

2009-08-10T06:25:11.124-07:00

Other thoughts:

Don't go to a crit group if all you want is unconditional support. Your parents/spouse/children have cornered that market.

As Stephen King says, "ties go to the writer." Half the crit group likes your ending, half hates it? You get to keep it the way you want. EVERYONE thinks a character is unlikeable, and he's not supposed to be? Better get re-writing.

Thank, Rick!

Missye / Laura / Donna (and anyone I may have miss...

2009-08-10T04:46:25.700-07:00

Missye / Laura / Donna (and anyone I may have missed),

The time frames will vary based on the work being critiqued. I would think 24 hours should be a minimum for a query, but if you're looking at a solid critique of a 100,000-word manuscript, several weeks worth of thought may be warranted.

I'm getting on this train a little late, but I...

2009-08-09T20:36:28.179-07:00

I'm getting on this train a little late, but I'm developing a company called TypeTribe where I'll need a critical mass of people available to give feedback to writers interested in improving their work. Feel free to check out http://typetribe.com to sign up for the launch notification e-mail.

This is an excellent post.

2009-08-09T13:47:02.982-07:00

This is an excellent post.

Thanks Jbc - I thought I might not be. Rick, you&...

2009-08-09T11:52:55.352-07:00

Thanks Jbc - I thought I might not be.

Rick, you'll have to find a way to include that - how to take in positive feedback.

Mira, I heard it said somewhere—‘All criticism hur...

2009-08-09T10:50:24.247-07:00

Mira,
I heard it said somewhere—‘All criticism hurts; All compliments are suspect.’ I don’t think you’re alone…

Oh, I agree with Missye, Laura and Donna about wai...

2009-08-09T10:45:26.611-07:00

Oh, I agree with Missye, Laura and Donna about waiting when you get feedback. Not only to be able to take it in, but to evaluate it.

I have an additional problem. When anyone praises my writing, I don't believe them. I think they're just being nice. I re-play what they said, looking for what they REALLY feel. If they wrote their feedback to me, I re-read it dozens of times, trying to read between the lines.

I have to fight the tendency to change things based on positive feedback. Does anyone else have this?

So, the sandwich approach works for me, because it feels more honest.

Hi Rick, Too late, I already applauded. :) I...

2009-08-09T10:36:19.247-07:00

Hi Rick,

Too late, I already applauded. :)

I'll put you on the list for the catapult though, as soon as Ink cranks it up, that is.

Although watching Ink heave ice cream across the river could have it's appeal as well.

Btw, it's now FOUR people who have e-mailed me raving about you.

When it gets to 10, I'm just going to put an automated forwarding to you on my e-mail. Fair warning.

OMG people; get off the food, will ya!? I'm d...

2009-08-09T00:17:14.590-07:00

OMG people; get off the food, will ya!? I'm dieting here. Though Jared lost weight with sandwiches, I'm just giving up my Ruffles and jelly filled donuts. My kids feel deprived enough the nights I make them hunt down sandwiches or frozen foods when I don't cook so I don't eat.

But seriously Laura, I think thats very good advice about waiting more than a week to revise. Your emotions - either devastation that someone didn't like your favorite passages, or an overwhelming desire to change everything because you value one or another critter's opinion - simmer and, possibly even dissolve. Not defending my creative inspiration during a critique session is hard, but letting my emotions get the better of me too soon after a critique is worse than when my computer crashes before I have a chance to save the last viable changes.

Hmm; I hope that came out right. Maybe I should go to bed and dream up a fix for my latest memory challenge . .
.........dhole

I totally agree, Missye. Best to let the feedback ...

2009-08-08T16:24:52.555-07:00

I totally agree, Missye. Best to let the feedback sit for a while, before trying to absorb it and possibly incorporate it within one's story.

But I would venture another suggestion re: time. In my limited experience with beta-reading, I find it best to wait a bit longer than 24 hours... more like a week or so (if not longer). Not just for the sake of the ego - but also to have an improved chance of approaching the feedback, manuscript, and possible revision with relatively fresh eyes.

And regarding sandwiches... my hubby made an awesome one today: grilled garlic chicken on sprouted wheat with tomato cream cheese, cheddar, tomato, and ranch dressing. Oh my, that was delish! And, darn it all, now I'm hungry again.

Mira, Ink, somebody, where's my bleepin' ice cream already?!

Hey, Rick, wasn't this meant to be a "Dag...

2009-08-08T15:24:22.397-07:00

Hey, Rick, wasn't this meant to be a "Dagwood"?

Notes worthy to digest, but one more nugget of advice you didn't offer--two, actually--those who're on the rant of overly sensitive to a well-constructed critique; and those receiving said critique let the feedback marinate a while. Best bench time: 24 hours. This way, after the ego's been hit and the high tide of emo's out the way, you can come back to the notes with an uninvolved eye and see things in a more objective fashion.

That aside, great notes, Rick, thank you. I'll take my "Crit Dagwood" on seedless rye, please, loaded, with onions, black olives, and ranch dressing.

~Missye

I thought ice cream was crank?

2009-08-08T14:34:13.399-07:00

I thought ice cream was crank?

Teehee. Even my kitty thought that was hilarious (...

2009-08-08T14:25:49.565-07:00

Teehee. Even my kitty thought that was hilarious (if only she'd stop biting me in her excitement). Thanks, Ink and Rick, for making my day, as always!

Now, why hasn't Mira weighed in on the whole crank vs. dairy debate? Wherever could she be? Harassing folks in the frozen food aisle?

I hope the catapult reaches Michigan, because if i...

2009-08-08T14:16:24.080-07:00

I hope the catapult reaches Michigan, because if it doesn't I'm out of luck here in Ohio.

BTW...I also took crank the wrong way. Now that sounds bad, let me rephrase that. I also misinterpreted his reference to crank. That's better.

WORD VERIFICATION: backsag. A problem affecting the cranking device in a catapult that prevents it from reaching the peak velocity needed to heave frozen dairy goods beyond the Mississippi.