Nathan Bransford, Author


Thursday, October 15, 2009

This Week in Publishing 10/15/09

This week! Publishing! Thursday!

Here's the schedule:

- The contest is open until today at 4pm Pacific, at which time I will close it to entries faster than you can say "thank goodness no more please thank you mercy."
- Tomorrow I will announce the paragraphs I have chosen as the Stupendously Ultimate Finalists, most likely in the form of a character in a television show, so as to keep with tradition. Prepare yourself.
- Voting will commence in that thread and will be open until Sunday at 6pm Pacific.
- The winner will be announced on Monday, and I'll also discuss my thoughts/reasons/observations/errata/postulations for all things first paragraph.

Before we get to the abbreviated week in publishing, a little plea:

I have now conducted enough blog contests to know the life cycle of every contest. At the beginning of the contest: everyone is excited excited excited! Then the finalists are announced, and a vocal minority goes from: excited excited excited! to mad mad mad! Throwing things! Shattered glass! Riots in the streets! I don't like any of the finalists Nathan is an idiot ZOMG he didn't choose the Charles Dickens paragraph I slipped in there to test him I think I'll go eat mud!

So here's my plea: please remember when the finalists are announced that this is just a contest on a blog, it's not a referendum on your skills as a writer, it's not the difference between getting published and not getting published, and with 2,300+ entrants, choosing only a couple out of such a huge number is a laughably difficult task. Let's not overestimate the importance of a paragraph in the grand scheme of things. Just because previous finalists have a good track record (he brags) doesn't mean that you also won't go on to be wildly successful. Remain confident in your abilities! If you're confident in your own work there's no need to hate on the finalists. Yes? Okay then.

I trust everyone to conduct themselves with professional decorum. But I'll be closing anonymous comments when the finalists are announced all the same.

This week in publishing!

Former Collins president Steve Ross penned the rarest of rare species: an article about how book publishers aren't actually idiots/Luddites (via Pub Rants). He points out that publishers have every reason to want e-books to succeed, even if too-cheap e-books presents quite a daunting challenge for business models.

Everyone in the world pointed me to this New Yorker Shouts & Murmurs piece about a publisher's fictional marketing plan. If so many people loved it it must be funny!

Galley Cat is breaking out its inner muckraker and is investigating an industry scourge: why isn't your agent returning your phone calls? Not this one, mind you. I call people back right quick.

Christian publisher Thomas Nelson made big waves this week as they announced a self-publishing program that has many people wondering if it's the future or simply a head-scratcher. The program is appropriating the name Westbow Press, which up until recently was an actual Thomas Nelson imprint. Thomas Nelson CEO/blogger Michael Hyatt writes that they see growth potential in self-publishing and will be looking for new voices. Rachelle Gardner, Maya Reynolds, Mike Shatzkin, and Victoria Strauss/Writer Beware all have must-read takes on the new venture and the many questions that have so far been left unanswered. Their responses range from cautious excitement to skepticism.

In e-book news, Gizmodo got their hands on some possible images of the Barnes & Noble e-reader, which combines e-ink with an iPhone like display for navigation. Well played, B&N. I wants one.

In other e-book news, JA Konrath peels back the mystery of publishing yet again with another blog post about his royalty statements. Turns out he's earning more from cheaply priced Kindle books that he self-published than from the ones that are published by Hyperion and have a higher price. THE FUTURE???????????

National Book Award nominees were announced! Congrats to publishing powerhouse Wayne State University Press for scoring a nominee. Take that, NYC!

John Ochwat passed on this really cool article in the NY Times about a woman who read a book a day for a year. That's pretty intense.

And finally, Esquire Magazine is always there with the pressing questions: are vampires so popular because women love gay men? (via Bookslut, naturally)

Have a great weekend!






85 comments:

Selestial said...

I adore several gay men (also really dislike a couple), but I'm more of a werewolf girl than a vampire girl.

Can't help but wonder what that says about me...


Oh, and I promise to vote in a professional manner once the finalists are announced :D

Richmond Writer said...

You're a brave soul. I have tried to read the paragraphs, for education if nothing else. It's an eye-opener about what it means to be an agent.

Stephanie L. McGee said...

You have my word to be professional and polite when the finalists are announced. (I may rant and rave in my head, but the words will be better.)

Good luck with all the paragraphs and the choosing!

Ryan Ashley Scott said...

I've already passed the "excited excited excited!" and moved directly to "lottery lottery lottery!" The odds might actually better? Plus, I really wanted to pass up the "I'm crap I'm crap I'm crap" stage, which is where I was headed after reading some great first paragraphs in the contest that were not mine. Really, it has been a lot of fun to read the entries.

Josin L. McQuein said...

No ranting and/or raving on the blog. We can all save that for when we're best sellers - then we'll take out a full page ad in the NYT that says:

NATHAN BRANSFORD GOT IT WRONG!

:-P

elancross said...

eeeeeeee!!! So excited!
Can't wait to see the finalists.
I can't believe you will have them chosen by tomorrow. Actually, I don't believe it. No way. You must be a machine. Or a vampire.

Dara said...

I'm still excited to see what was chosen. :) There were so many great paragraphs, I can see why it would be such a difficult task!

I'm just surprise you're able to keep your eyes in your head after reading so many...I'm guessing you have a timer going so when it hits 4 PM, you'll be quick to close the comments!

Marsha Sigman said...

I intend to be perfectly professional...after all of course you'll pick mine!

Seriously, I won't be offended if you don't. There is some fierce competition here and with all the entries you have to read through, its hard not to be sympathetic.

I would like to add that I like gay men as well as the next girl but I don't like vampires because they remind me of gay sensitive men. I like mine edgy and dangerous...thank you, J.R. Ward.

Melissa said...

JA Konrath's results don't surprise me a bit. The important take away, I think, is that he built his fanbase through traditional publishing FIRST, and then self-published e-books.

No name said...

Even though I have no clue what ZOMG is, what you wrote is pretty funny. I'm not leaving my name so that I don't look like a suck up, since I'm in the contest. Hope all goes well and that you enjoy picking the finalists.

Anonymous said...

Nathan, many thanks for all that you do for us aspiring writers. Keep rockin' out the literary world.

L.J. Boldyrev said...

Now that is an interesting take on Vampires *hides the 20 or so vampire fiction novels on her book shelf*

Congrats to all the Natoinal Book Award nominees! And best of luck to all who entered the contest!

Jill Corcoran said...

Love your weekly round-ups. Thanks, Nathan. Have a great weekend.

Karen Schwabach said...

Melissa,

Yes, quite true.

And this is something I've thought about before: say you're Stephen King, or someone with about that level of popularity. You could start self-publishing now and leave your publishers in the lurch.

Which would be kinda harsh.

Anonymous said...

It's feminine men, not necessarily gay. WOW that sounds even worse. Maybe it's men with lots of emotion.

Kristi said...

L.J. - I figured you'd love that Esquire article :)

Happy weekend to all!

Anonymous said...

it's danger-kitty.

word verification: etify

DebraLSchubert said...

I, too, love me my gay men. But I'm not wild about vampires. Hmm. I'm sure my fantasy therapist would have a field day with that one! And, I'm glad to know you're not the agent NOT returning phone calls since one of my blog pals is a client. (Gotta love those double negatives!)

I hereby promise to behave in a forthright manner upon your disclosure of the deserving, talented, and darn lucky winners. I will only scream loudly into my pillow and beat on my mattress. The truth is that if you, in fact, read through all 2000+ paragraphs, you are the real winner. (Or at least a brave, bleary-eyed, dedicated soul.)

Travener said...

Can I just protest your opening para selections in advance and be done with it?

Cory Clubb said...

FACT: I am curious which paragraph "Dwight" from The Office would choose. Would he base his selections off of storylines originating from Battlestar Galactica or his expert knowledge from beet farming?

At any rate I am sure his picks would be good enough for bears of any kind.

Wanda B. Ontheshelves said...

Re: "National Book Award nominees were announced! Congrats to publishing powerhouse Wayne State University Press for scoring a nominee. Take that, NYC!"

And let me mention also, Detroit's own ML Liebler, maestro of Detroit poetry scene, musician and poet himself, on faculty at WSU, also recently won the Writers' Writer award from Barnes & Noble / Poets and Writers magazine.

Congratulations to both Bonnie Jo Campbell, whose collection "American Salvage" is up for National Book Award,

http://wsupress.wayne.edu/Series/
Made-in-Michigan-Writers

and ML Liebler, website:

http://www.mlliebler.com/

performing at the newly-reopened Alvin's on WSU campus this week, as ML Liebler & The Automatic Mojo

http://www.alvinsoncass.com/

Chuck H. said...

I've only managed to read about half of the entries and I'm shot to hell. Can't imagine how you feel. I still think my entry is fairly unique--not necessarily good, but different. I promise to act professionally when you make the final selection. I'm just not naming the profession I'll be acting in.

Word Ver: thdor - what I'll be shown after you read my entry.

Amanda said...

I excited to see what you chose, Nathan!

Anonymous said...

My opinion is that anyone who entered wins - maybe not the contest, but for participating. It's not easy for everyone to join even informal contests.

You learn, you grow. That's the real purpose of life. So thanks for the contest and for giving people an opportunity to baby-step closer to mass writing exposure. :)

Dave to You said...

Just thanks for the fun of getting to throw mine out there. Really liked reading all the others whether they were my cup of alphabet soup or not. The discussions you created are priceless. I'll still put my pencil to paper (and then paper to keyboard, I can't 'write' from a keyboard) with my goal to hear someone say, "This is really good."

I look forward to your picks, regardless of genre and my tastes.

"Isn't fun just the best thing ever?"...Arthur Bach

Mira said...

Great idea to close for anonymous for the weekend!

Look at all these wonderful links. Nathan, that you took the time to do this while trying to do your regular job plus the contest -you are so dedicated. I hope your bosses know how incredible you are. Thank you!!

I'll read the links over the weekend - they look really interesting.

So, yes, I'm one who was taking this too seriously. I'm on overwhelm in general, so I probably should have sat this one out. But I was so worried you wouldn't feel supported, Nathan, and there wouldn't be enough contest entries without mine.....you know, like when you throw a party and no one shows up. The difference between 3,000 and 3,001, well I didn't want you to feel unappreciated.

So, in terms of losing - I was thinking about a kid's book I love, called Juniper. It has this chapter where the little girl goes to a special meeting. She gets picked to be the Princess. She loves all the attention and being special. She says: I want to be the Princess next year. And the adult says to her: No, everyone wants to be the Princess (or Prince). So, we have to take turns, so that everyone gets a chance.

So, we all have our own path right? And they are all going different places, so they look different. So, for the finalists who get the chance to be Princess (or Prince) of the day tomorrow, well, it's their turn, right? :)

I also think it is so cool that you give people a chance to shine like that, Nathan. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

I am down to 254 characters, yet get a max of 300 characters flag to block my entry. Why??

Jenni Bailey said...

I can't wait to see the finalists! Even if I'm not one of them, it has been a great experience. I don't know about everyone else but I've learned a lot about what to do and what not to do already.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about what draws you to the ones you choose.

word verification: misti. Which is ironic because I knew a gay man named Misti once and, yes, I loved him.

Mariel Devine said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dawn Maria said...

Let's all sleep well tonight, full of hope and excitement. Sadly, it will only feel like Christmas for a few, but it' always fun to play the game!

Good luck to everyone!

Christy Pinheiro, EA ABA said...

I love with JA Konrath. He's a badass. His salty, no-holds-barred commentary has made his blog one of my favorites.

Last month, he decided to do an "e-book experiment" where he allowed authors to add a snippet of their books to HIS e-books for a fee. I gladly paid. Don't you think that in-book advertising is the future of publishing? Authors might hate it-- but loathsome product placement is already becoming the norm WITHIN tv shows, as people turn to TiVo and fast-forward through all the commericals.

I have fought converting my textbooks to e-books-- but Konrath knows the future of publishing, and I think his prognosis is correct. Publishing is going to change-- A LOT; it's already happening.

And he's the first author I've ever seen disclose all his sales/revenues/profits.

Davin Malasarn said...

I'll admit I was a little frustrated after the last first paragraph contest. But, after a few days of mulling it over, I was able to reread the winning paragraphs in a new light, and I think I learned a lot from the contest.

Hoping the selection goes smoothly, Nathan.

Amber said...

I WAS lobbying for a Kindle for Christmas... but now I totally want the B&N e-reader. Way cool.

Oh! *raises right hand and puts the other hand on her currently in-progress novel* I swear to behave admirably, and nothing but admirably when the results come out, so help me.

And... good luck! ^^

jjdebenedictis said...

Ye-ah. That last article doesn't present many persuasive arguments.

Vampires = gay men because Neil Gaiman discovered how many Twilight fans there are? Faulty logic.

Vampires = gay men because Lord Byron was maybe bisexual? Faulty logic.

Vampires = gay men because vampires became a little more popular when AIDS began to get scary to the mainstream? Faulty logic.

Vampires = gay men because True Blood draws parallels between being gay and being a vampire? Much better, but still faulty logic.

It's not like a person couldn't make a strong case. The article could have talked about all the homoeroticism in Anne Rice's books.

Anonymous said...

Mira,

today =:(

Usually = : ) or even LOL.

We're not all bad.

Mira said...

Anon - sorry, no idea what you mean. I didn't say anyone was bad.....?

Sorry it felt like I did. :(

Anonymous said...

Re: publishers want e-books to do well.



THE STRAIN by del Toro/Hogan costs $19.50 in E-BOOK format.

THE STRAIN on Amazon.com in HARDCOVER costs $17.81.


I know e-books have costs like regular publishing, but they do not have paper production costs.

For an ebook to cost MORE than a paper book is lame.

-Kaneya Naran

Lydia Sharp said...

I find it funny how much your "followers" number jumps every day when you do these contests.

Just FYI, we had a pretty vocal nay-sayer of this contest spout off on the Writer's Digest forum yesterday. Needless to say, myself and quite a few other people (who actually know what they're talking about) jumped all over it. It's one thing to state your opinion, and it's quite another to state lies as if they are facts in an attempt to bring down someone who has helped so many people in his UNspare time (uh, that would be you). We gotch'yer back, Nathan!

Anonymous said...

p.s.

The E-Book price of $19.50 I got off of fictionwise.com

-Kaneya Naran

Mira said...

Oh!!! You meant closing for anons!!!

Oh, I know. I'm a strong supporter for anons. But I do understand for this weekend while the voting is going on.

I've seen these contests, too, and the winners can be targets. It can get really nasty. Really. Wars and battles and insults.

I'm sorry if that leaves you out though - that sucks. Sorry.

emery said...

I'm not even entering, but I wanted to say this before the madness ensues: you are such a good guy, Nathan, and you should take SO much pride in all of the above-and-beyond work that you do.

Anonymous said...

It's okay Mira. You're always such a sweetie.

Sarah Erber said...

I'm still trying to read all the comments, but I don't know how well that will go.

:P

As far as vampires go ... I hate all the "sensitive" vampire junk. I prefer a murderous-bloodsucking-creature to act like a man.

:)

And finally, I'm happy I didn't fall into the catergory of "blood, dead bodies, Running, ect." But the contest has some AWESOME entries/competitors. I wish the finialists best of luck!

Nathan,
I don't know how you do it. YOu're great!

Do you personally like Dialog close to the begining of the novel, or does it bother you?

Other Lisa said...

Well, it's definitely gonna break 2,500 entries...dare we hope for 3000???

Nathan Bransford said...

Thanks, Lydia!

Kate said...

As a result of this contest, I realized that my fourth paragraph is really my first. Wins aside, I'm a little bit closer to a better piece of writing. No whining here.

I must be totally missing the vampire/gay men connection. I think it's more about the "bad boy" thing. I'm a sucker for bad boys.

Yeah I said it.

Alicia A said...

The paragraph contest was another means to learning the craft. Not only so we see the great work of our peers, which we could learn from as we do from the work of published authors, we get the opportunity to peak into the mind of an agent. The finalists Nathan chooses will give great insight to what stands out in the overwhelming in box of an agent in the form of specific examples. Everything in life is a learning experience.

Nick said...

Nathan, here's a bit of interesting news for you and everyone else:

I just learned of a company called alphascript publishing, which directly lifts Wikipedia articles and repackages them as books, some costing as high as $94.

My money's on it not lasting very long.

As for the paragraphs, I wish you good fortune. I skimmed a few, and just couldn't bring myself to read them all. I really did like most of what I read though, and even though I could pick a winner out of the twelve or thirteen I read, I don't know that I could pick runners-up, fellow finalists, etc. And there are thousands of comments, some of which will probably have to be scrapped right off the bat, so there's definitely no envy from me there.

And in looking at the comments to the left of me, it only confirms something of a trend I've been noticing lately. Maybe it's just the on the ones I end up deciding to comment on, but it seems to me the majority of your readers/commenters are female. Pointing this out mostly because I'm bored, and partially because I find it slightly interesting.

And here I go with my rambling again. Must learn to shut my e-mouth.

Stephanie said...

Recall your rule: No angst.

I will obey. At least outwardly.

Madison L. Edgar said...

Is that supposed to mean vampires are gay? Don't really get that one. I mean, look at Edward Cullen for cryin' out loud! :-) Gay? I don't THINK so...

GhostFolk.com said...

New Yorker Shouts & Murmurs piece about a publisher's fictional marketing plan. If so many people loved it it must be funny!

Oh, it is, it is!

We can send you a list of bookstores in your area once you fill out the My Local Bookstores list on your Author’s Questionnaire.

Truly.

ChristaCarol said...

Hah, you never fail to crack me up. And sheesh, I couldn't imagine reading a book a day for a year. My family would surely have left me after the first week.

Good luck on the judging!

Anonymous said...

Hmm...Just what we females need. A man telling us why we find something attractive. I often wonder if they bother asking women.

I for one know lots of women who share my love of paranormal books/movies and none have never said, "I like vampires because I want to have sex with gay men."

Usually they say, "He is good looking, or sexy", or something to that nature.

Emily White said...

That B&N e-reader is so perty. In the words of Gollum, "we wants it, precious, we wants it."

Willow Cross said...

Yeah...the vampire post revved me up a bit. So much so, I did my own post about it. Vampires intrigued me as a child, long before I knew gay meant anything other than happy. I wonder what his take on that would be?

Anonymous said...

But how will you hear from The Anonypus if you disable anonymous comments?!

~The Anonypus

Tamara Hart Heiner said...

you are simply hilarious, as always.

Dances with Werewolves said...

I'm on to you, Nathan. You think you can blog and still keep your secret a secret, but you can't. The long hours, the incredibly fast response times (you rejected me in 2 hours), the ability to read almost 3000 first paragraphs....

You're a freaking vampire. The question is--do you sparkle?

thoughtful1 said...

I thought I already posted this, but maybe I hit the wrong button, anyway forgive if this is a repeat.

Nathan, are any other agents reading these paragraphs, ya think?

By the number of times I have logged in to read your blog in the past few days, you wouldn't know I have a life, So. It is a pretense there is no Angst. I read your picks from the last contest and felt further humbled, so maybe Angst is too positive a word. But thank you for the fun. When it is all over, when the glasses have all been thrown, I will go back to my life. And I can see there is much to be done if I am to change that life to include being published.

Alicia A said...

I think vampires are representations of "Mr. Right" and that is why woman love them so much. Immortal, powerful, and perfectly beautiful, with a dash of dangerously deadly. They are the paranormal bad boy we can't take home to meet the parents but sure don't mind having naughty fling with during those crazy college years.

Lady Glamis said...

Good luck, Nathan! Is your wife going to make you eggnog again? Heheh.

Sharone said...

A book a day for a year sounds downright relaxing compared to what I have to read for my PhD qualifying exams...oh, to read for fun again!

Thanks so much for hosting this contest, Nathan! It's been fascinating and very educational. God bless your poor, tired eyeballs. :)

Sam Hranac said...

DebraLSchubert has a fantasy therapist? Man could I use one of those.

Susan Quinn said...

Tick . . . tick . . . tick . . .

Mercy me (or rather YOU)! Your fans have already surpassed my 2x estimate (2428) - and the last-minute avalanche hasn't even kicked in (yet)!

Oh my. Good Luck!

Anonymous said...

Esquire has missed the point -- women love vampires because they would like to believe that if they actually found a man who surpassed the minimum standards of acceptablity (put's toilet seat down) he would live forever. lol.

Victoria Strauss said...

Thanks for the link, Nathan!

Deniselle said...

I'm surprised to read that some people have thrown fits in the previous years. I see many people saying, here and elsewhere, that they feel a little daunted by the really good entries and feel their own paragraph needs a lot of work. That's definitely what I'm thinking right now. So maybe we're just the humble ones?

I'm really curious to see which ones you pick and what your criteria is. This has been such a learning experience already. Good luck!

steve said...

OK, so you scared me on the opening paragraph length. I went from 241 to 60 words. Extra credit is expected.

Terry said...

Great links. Steve Ross' article on the trials and tribulations of publishers made me understand better what they're up against.

Also, loved the Bookslut's commentary. Hmm. I once had a crush on a handsome, brilliant, gay guy. But neither he nor I were vampires. Maybe that's why it didn't work out... Or maybe he just wasn't that into me.

Good luck choosing the finalists. I know I'll have a hard time voting.

PurpleClover said...

Thanks for the links.

LMAO on the vampire bit. Um...I've seen some pretty hot gay men in my time but none bed-lust worthy! haha.

But I believe there is a desire for a chase to get an ungettable get. Not sure it's just women though. I just think people want what a) they can't have OR b) is dangerous for them.

Thanks again for doing the contest. You have never-ending energy to be doing everything you're doing. Whatever you're on...tell me. I want some...even if I have to get an Rx for it! :D

Now...back to nodding and drooling on my computer!

Jenn

Journaling Woman said...

Pick me, Pick me. Oh wait I didn't have time to enter. I will next time.

Joann said...

Just wanted to add my thanks for offering this contest, Nathan. I can hardly wait to read the books behind these amazing first paragraphs. What an incredible learning experience this has been!

mkcbunny said...

Nathan, I don't know how you find time to do everything you do. Just when it looked like you'd maxed out your time (agent! blogger! author!), you posted another contest. You're insane—in a good way.

Thanks. I look forward to voting. I love voting!

Mike said...

Hats off to you Nathan.

Anybody who can do this contest and muster the time and energy to do anything else (maybe shower or sleep) must be some kind of reading Hercules. I can't imagine doing this and working a job too let alone fielding all the querys, dealing with the egos and irate people etc. . You have truly shown me that literary agents EARN THEIR MONEY!

ryan field said...

I love the Esquire link.

Arik Durfee said...

I clicked on the link to the previous contest and was really impressed with the finalists. This whole thing has made me think more than I ever have of the importance of every little word in each paragraph. I'm excited to read and learn from the finalists tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

Just read the NYT bestseller's opeing paragraphs. chapter Ones free online. that's how you really learn.

Service Manager said...

I'm thinking the Thomas Nelson self-publishing move might be the future, for Christian publishing. Seems everyone I meet who is in the business of church has a book to hock.

Come to think of it, I guess the original bible was self published, no?

Jen C said...

I had a fleeting moment of regret for not entering the comp (my first paragraph is actually ready to go - my book is in its FINAL editing pass OMG). But, I think it's going to be much more fun sitting back and watching how it all pans out!

AM said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AM said...

Wow! "This Week in Publishing" provided a panoramic view of the publishing industry’s painful transition.

Steve Ross proves himself a nobleman among commoners in his article in which he argues that the publishing industry should be uplifted rather than trampled.

About WestBow, I agree with Rachelle Gardner that Thomas Nelson should select another name for its self-publishing imprint. I’d be interested in seeing Nelson’s answers to the questions Mike Shatzkin posed. And JA Konrath made a compelling argument for self-publishing with e-books.

Lots and lots to think about.

I wonder if next year, if Ms. Sankovitch would be interested in reading an unpublished book every day to review on her blog?

Anonymous said...

Agree with anon 10:46; it's not the fact that they're "gay" that's appealing, but rather that they're effeminate.

Basically, effeminate men = cultured men = men who are most probably filthy rich. Trufax. Being posh is not a manly characteristic. It's been proven in linguistic studies, for example, that speaking with a cultivated accent is by far a feminine trait.

In other words, it's not their "gayness" that's attractive, but their effeminacy (and all the implications that come with it: education, wealth, prestige.) Gay = likes sleeping with other men. Effeminate = possesses feminine qualities. Contrary to popular belief, the two don't necessarily have to overlap.

pauline said...

you are awesome. The (he brags) you slipped in there made me almost wet myself laughing. rock ON!

Terry said...

Anon: 12:43, Nice theory,and may be true, in some cases, but the gay guy I had a crush on was quite masculine, not effeminate. So, the reasons may vary.

I agree that gay and effeminate don't have to overlap.

Terry said...

Sorry, I meant, Anon 12:33

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